Andrew Starkey Interview

This Interview was conducted at a site that has attracted extra interest from the Department of Science, Industry and Resources, the body responsible for site selection of the National/International? Nuclear Waste Dump. Far from 'Remote' only 30km from Roxby Downs, 50km from Andamooka, 50km from Woomera this site is a mere 3-4km from the main connecting Highway.

Andrew Starkey is a spokesperson for the Kokatha people, the traditional owners of the land on which we now travel and is Indigenous Liaison Officer for the Defense Department.

This is a word for word interview conducted by Dictaphone.

Do you feel that the DISR consultation process gave a fair representation of the wishes of your people?

Well, not entirely, as you said my name is Andrew Starkey and I'm a Kokatha man and I've always been in this neck of the woods. My family originated from around the Andamooka Area and worked on Pastoral leases for a long time. In relation to your question, although we have been consulted we are not in agreeance with what is happening here. We are kind of stuck in between them and the deep blue sea, if we say yes to part of this consultation process then we are deemed as saying yes to having the site put here of Kokatha land but if we don't be part of the process they will come in and forcibly acquire the land under the Land Acquisition Act anyway. So what we are doing is being forced into this to make sure that the places that they are looking at to drill are not on any areas of significance for us, culturally wise.

What was this land used for traditionally by your people?

Well the land through here, although it looks pretty harsh and uninviting and all the rest of it, does sustain plenty of wildlife, its not dry and parched all the time. Looking across here it is void of trees and vegetation, it is like that for a reason, it was created like that in one of our dreamtime stories. It is a sacred story for the men so we can't say about that but the country still does have a use, because the land is so flat and void like this doesn't mean it's useless. When you look across here you can see little patches of green grass and green bushes, they are there because when it does rain they are the places that the water goes, in stays in those little gullies. They are claylines so the water stays there for a while and as a result of that only 2 or 3 days and you have green shoots and vegetation. This entices the game out onto the plain.s like Kangaroo and Emu and hence they are out on the plain and alot easier to hunt.

How have the Kokatha people been affected by the Nuclear Industry's activities on this land?

Well Kokatha more so than any other Australian whether they be indigenous or likewise have been subject to the Nuclear Industry for years and years. Our people were subject to what happened at Maralinga (Atomic bomb testing by the British) and our old people have that in the back of their minds. They know full well the implications of the Nuclear Industry and what is happening. Maralinga.....mmm, up the road we have Olympic dam one of the largest producers of Uranium product in the world, thats in our backyard now and we have to live with that because we are aware that the mine will be operating there for not just another 20 years or so that'll be there for centuries to come. That place up there is of major significance for Kokatha and other groups in the area, it used to be a big lore spot there.

As you position as Indigenous Liaison officer for the Australian Department of Defence, Do you think they have an understanding of the cultural differences, needs and wants of your people?

I work for the Department of Defence but I can only speak from a perspective as a Kokatha person. In the past things should have been done alot better but as time goes on not only defence but many other people have been made aware of the fact that you just can't go in like a bull at the gate - development, development. You've got to make sure you respect people's wishes and the thing with this sort of country around here, aboriginal people can have a say about a particular story associated with that place, and they can live hundreds of kilometres away, so you've got to consult everybody as to what's happening.

One of the responsibilities of a lore person is that you are looking after the land not only for your own people and your own children but also other people and other communities as I said, that are hundreds of kilometres away. Stories don't stop at the boundary gate or at the borderline they were there before any of that was put in place.

So the Gov would say that becasue there are no people living here at the moment that it is not affecting anybody. That wouldn't be so would it? out here there are no houses, no people what I really want to know is that even though there aren't those It is still just as important to the land.

Just because there is no-one sitting down on country doesn't mean it is not important for people, because it is when we come through here we just go along on our merry we still hunt kangaroo and emu, we still cook our food in the ground as our ancestors have done.

When you are born into the kinship system, as Aboriginal people are, you have roles and responsibities that go with you for life, OK, you might be associated with a tract of land, that may have been through birthright, or have been your grandmother's or grandfather's neck of the woods and those responsibilites are passed down from Grandparents to grandchildren and so on. And that's a constant. People keep those stories strong, assoicated with that area and look after that country for everybody and that in a way is like and Aboriginal Gov..

There is no continuity in the Westminster system of Government. Every 3 or 4 years those people are voted out, and they haven't got there heart in it, you know. We've negotiated with a Gov for a particular development and then there is a change in Gov and your back to square one negotiating again and all those things you've gained through negotiation and sitting down talking level headed with Government officials is out the gate when Government changes that's the trouble.

So that's one of the major differences between lore l-o-r-e and law the Western system, are there any other major differences you can mention?

I've been brought up to respect it (the lore system) and I don't really go in to talking too much about it for lots of reasons but what I can say is that it is still alive and strong out there in the communities in central Australia and around these necks of the woods, will still participate in ceremonial activity.

So Aboriginal lore is still based on respect for the land and spiritual understanding isn't it?

How I've been taught lore, I was taught by a lot of senior lore men all around the place and one of the things they have said to me is that it is like a
For an aboriginal community to function you need 3 things the people, the land and the lore and those three things are wound to gether tight like a rope and as time goes by, if any of those things drop by the wayside,say you have no land then you will have no lore because there will be no-one to govern, no people sitting down on the land. So every one of those things is reliant on each other.

So the people making the decision about this dump and the nuclear industry's activities on the land, gov bodies and industry heads, how do you feel there understanding is of the land?

As I've said there heart is not in it. They are there to do a job, Basically they are there to tell us that we will put a dump here, and that's it. It doesn't matter which political government is in power, if they've got something set in there mind to do then they will ride over the top of you and do it, whether you want it or not. Kokatha have come from a lot of areas where we have struggled over all the years because of that. You know we've had people in our community that have fought for 25 years or more for land rights and all that sort of stuff, and they continue to do so and there are younger people coming up who will do so as well. The governments have to listen to what the people want, instead of contaminating areas that is virgin country, why don't they put it where there is already contamination ? Why should they produce a lot of it in the first place?

What makes you think the site we are here at now will be the one chosen for this dump?

Initially Kokatha were consulted about the waste that is stored at Woomera Range now since 1994. The olitical Government at the time said (if) you help us accomodate this for a period of 18 months only then you guys will benefit indirectly by jobs, or by your businesses. I can tell you that hasn't happened.

I have to add that part of the process was that a group of Kokatha elders , senior Lore men from central Australia went across to Lucus Heights, Sydney then across to Canberra to speak with the relevant politicians at parliment house and at no time ;did we say for them to transport that stuff or have that stuff on Kokatha land, we only found out whilst we were going back to the affected communities the fact that stuff was already on route to Woomera. Is it any wonder that Kokatha people don't believe what Governments are saying, what people want us to do. We've been pushed from pillar to post on nuclear issues and its time that the Government, if it's serious about reconciliation should listen to the people.

The site we are at here now on Purple Downs looks like it could be one of there favourable spots for them because it is sort of close to a major highway, there is a road that goes past here that wouldn't take much to maintain; all the material they store here at the rangehead could be transported here without too concern to the public. You know in the future WMC will probably want to use such a facility to get rid of some of their stuff and it is only a hop, skip and a jump from where they are, plus it is on a pastoral lease that is owned by WMC, so you won't have any opposition from the people that own the pastoral lease, lets put it that way.

According to the criteria what do you think is unsuitable or suitable about this site?

This is the south east corner. Part of the problem we are having is that Aboriginal people are engaged in looking at the archeological site to make sure this sort of thing doesn't infringe upon it. What we found was that although the land is devoid of any major landscapes there are other things of significance for us they might not mean much to other people. Kokatha are finding it really hard to find these places. The vegetation, although hard to pick, if you take the time you'll see the

This area is targetted because there is waste at the range already. Everyone benefits from medical radioisotopes, so it is a problem for every Australian, not just Aboriginal people. We feellike we've had enough of this stuff pushed down our throats over the years, the Government needs to listen to us.

There is already a repository that is 5 square kilometres, in Mt Wilton, Western Australia. A bit west of Calgoorlie in the mallee there. Why not use that. Most of the waste is generated in the eastern State

They don't have a good history moving waste. That was low level waste and they didn't too well with that.

There is definitely water here, although they said it was salty. With technology today, this country could support displaced peoples transferred from one place of the world to another. These are the sort of areas, which with the technology we have today we could turn that water into fresh water. I learnt a long time ago that change is pretty quick these days. Technology They need to look long term. Look at Maralinga, they said no-one would want to live there and look at it now, they are trying to clean it up.

What is your biggest concern about the dump?

One of the things that is evident to the Kokatha is that these things have the effect of snowballing. Once someone says OK we'll have a dump here it is only one step from there to say OK lets have all the nuclear waste of the world. Let's be the good corporate citizens but ..... It has the potential to do that. The politicians say it is again the constitution and all that, but it doesn't take much to change that. Politicians and money is a bad mix.

Do you feel the residents have been informed enough about the dump?

This process started in the1992 by the labour Gov. Now we have a liberal Gov in power, so as I was saying it doesn't matter which Gov in power, if they want to do this sort of thing, they'll do it. Because it has been such a long drawn out process it has been hard to keep up momentum about these sort of things. You bring up defence and people against it and then it takes months and months before you hear back from them again. They have changed the Gov, they have changed the name of the department, it is now Department of Sciences, Industry and Resources, and that in itself has thrown people of track to an extent. You hear Minchin talk about it on the radio about hospital grade waste, but he neglects to mention Category S waste, but people don't realise things happen quickly, when it happens.

In Australia People now, High school students and University students are among the Australians that are more environmentally sensitive. The kids are the ones that are eventually going to run this country, it is those sort of people we need because you have got to respect the country. You can't just mine it, dig it up, blow it up. There will come a time when that land will be important for someone to utilise it to make a living off it. We have to think a bit more long term, not always develop, develop for short term to solve the unemployment problem, but at what cost?

How many people do you think this dump will employ?

There are not going to be that many jobs in it. Basically once it's set up, fenced off and secure, with some sort of video surveillance, close to infrastructure like roads, power etc., (you can see the powerlines in the distance and the bitumen road runs just next to it. Sitting in Woomera Prohibited Area on land owned by WMC, probably sitting on one of the prime spots for the dump I'd say.

Look at the country around here now. We have one of the biggest uranium producers here in our backyard and they are going to be here for another 200yrs with the mineral deposit they have. We know they have other deposits which will probably last another couple of hundred. What is going to happen after that. We won't be here in 100yrs it is going to be our children's children. If they are not aware of what's around the place they are going to suffer. If it is going to be privatised, what will happen? Anything could happen. If this ends up being the site for high grade waste, some of that waste could be used by terrorists. :T;hey are going to have to keep an eye on it. Terrorists could come over, grab some of this stuff and use it to make bombs.

How much waste could be here in 100yrs
They have a stockpile of waste in Australia which could take a few years to gather and bring out here. Lots of this stuff is out of sight out of mind.

The security of the dump would be probably video cameras and a fence that's probably about it. and they'll have someone close to it that's why they need it put in an area where there is infrastructure and people living already, so they can monitor it.

The whole facility is 1.5 square kilometres but the area for the actual dump is about the size of a footy dump. The rest is securit;y and buffer zone.

Are the security plans available?

No, the thing is they don't know themselves what they are going to do with it. Are they going to privatise it? Are they going to have it as a Gov run facility? We don't know.

Do you think they have already made those decisions?

I reckon they would have made the decision about where they want to put the dump site. You can't tell me they don't. This area has been tested for years. Mining companies have come through and put drill holes all over the place. They know what's underneath, they are just playing for time and hoping that people can't get together enough or keep the momentum enough to keep demonstrating and protesting about what they are doing.

Buying political time and being distracted by the Olympics. Lots of people being excited about being patriotic!!

A lot of the Aboriginal people will suffer from the Olympics because a lot of the money they would have got for development programs will go to the Olympics. It is hard enough trying to get money for development let alone competing with the Olympics.

What about the tailings dam from Olympic mine?

It's been affecting the birds and animal life. The birds land on it and as a result they are dying. They reckon one time they picked up 130 odd birds out of the tailings dam one year and the following year they picked up only 70. They were saying things are getting better, I'm saying No the birds are just dying off, there are not that many left to die. Those birds are migratory and are relying on the older birds to show them what to do.

We have heard from a Lyndhurst resident that two people are employed full time to pick up dead animals and birds from around the tailings dam to keep it looking nice

How close are potential dump sites to where we are now, here at this cultural site of significance (just out of Woomera)?

Along the old Stuart highway here, a number of sites that have been identified here as potential sites. There are, from memory 4/5 potential sites here. The Aboriginal community have said no to these sites. Although driving along people might think there is nothing here, but you come over the horizon and see sites like this and just down the road a bit further there are other sites of significance for us. They have realised that finding a 1.5 square kilometre area that is devoid of sites of cultural significance for Aboriginal people is very very hard.

What is to say that the area for the dump will not get bigger? Every time they have spoken about the dump there is a bit more added to the equation. Listen to Senator Nick Minchin, and his press releases, all he talks about is hospital grade waste he forgets to mention Category S waste. What about building the pilot plant for this Synroc program (see Bruce Thompson interview). and this other business. Its just one thing after another. And it is one step from there for taking the nuclear waste for the world.

We all know there is a lot of money involved and we all know politicians and money go hand in hand.

So this 1.5 square kilometre area could easily increase for supposed security and environmental reasons?

Yes
INFOR REGARDS THE SIGNIFICANT SITE
Where natural holes have formed

What is the history of the site where we have camped with our camels?

Along time ago it was the construction camp for the people building Woomera. The ponds was an area where there was a dam. Further over Lake Witchelson, and that's how they got themselves into a bit of srife with Woomera because initially they were looking for somewhere where there was water. They came up here not long after there was rain and the Lake was full. So they set up camp across the road and started putting infrastructure in and went to far to pull out but then the water dried up. So then they built the pipe line from the Murray up to Woomera. That's where the water comes from for Woomera, the Murray.

The last big rain we had was in 1989. The lakes hold the water for 3/4 years, especially the soaks.

Regards the waste dump they say they want to put it out here because it is dry. This land out here seems dry but in reality is actually very wet? The water just sheets off here. When we have had steady rain the ground gets very wet. The ground gets saturated.

What about the soaks that hold water?

Especially across the Gibber country. The gilgais or crabholes, those areas that hold water for a long long time and it is those areas where vegetation grows back first.

So really it is a misperception that this is dry land ?

Exactly!

Once it rains here for a long time you get bogged here very quick.

Gibber rock holds the soil down. It is very easily erodable. There is heaps of plant life here. So it is obviously very fertile soil. Exactly, vegetation is already growing back.

Part of the process of the DSIR is that the drill sites will be rehabilitated. Some ofthe sites that we have said No to is that those sites have now have quite identifyable tracks going in and out of there. In this neck of the woods, weekend drivers follow these roads and might get themselves into difficulty. But no-one will know where they are because it is not a gazetted road. Nobody knows about because it has only be used to look for a radioactive waste dump site.

How different will this land look in summer? It looks pretty lush now. Now it is actually quite dry. We should have had a lot more rain this year, but we've hardly had any at all, so this summer is going to be very dry. Most of these plants now will shut down, they won't grow they will go dorment.

I was told by an expert in the field that some of these blue bushes could be upto 300 yrs old. They have the big stumps underneath and look really old and weathered, almost like a bonzai plant.

So this is an old growth desert! Exactly

What pastoral lease are we on now? Arcoona

The next one along is Wirramina which means a little dish and rain water. Part of the problem we have is that it might not have flowing water and lush vegetation but that doesn't get away from the fact that it is significant to people. This area is totally unique.

The mud here is really glaggy and sticks like shit to your blanket.

Being out at Lake Eyre and seeing the lake get closer as my perception improved.

If people were to realise how special, beautiful and amazing this land is, there may be more of an inclination to try and preserve it but maybe there would also be more of an inclination to try and touristify the area with shops etc?

That's the problem, how much do you tell people. There are a lot of places out here that are still significant to people. Having worked at Uluru for a number of years and seeing the impact tourists have on that area. I started there in 1988/1989 and left nearly 10 years later. The trail up Uluru this terrain, although it looks very hard and tough, it is still very fragile and you have to way up the pros and cons.

The site we just came from has had conservation plans and so on put in place to make sure visitation is kept down to a minimum, restricted access so we know who is going in there, that way we can look after it a bit better and protect it.

People have died on Ayers Rock. How could ecotourism compete with the dump?

You have to know where to go. I'd much rather To an extent the dump is going to deter people from coming here, they think they might be harmed from the waste. It's only a perception but that's all it takes. Once people say "I don't want to go there it's radioactive" that's it. So it threatens the potential to develop ecotourism in the area.

How do the Kokatha people feel about the mining at Olympic Dam?

The mining there is pulling the guts out of a story basically, a men's story. The Kokatha people want nothing to do with it. If some of that uranium were used to make bombs and people die as a result of it I'm sure we are going to feel responsible, it came from our country. Although we didn't make the bombs, the stuff that went into the bombs came from our country, and off course we'll feel responsible for that.

How are the people?

The open public day regards the dump in Port Augusta had 17 people out of the whole population of Port Augusta went and asked what was going on. Initially when all the waste was originally transported to this area, the first people knew about it was when the emergency services were out cleaning up spilt drums of waste and that's sort of brought the residents of Port Augusta aware. Recently we have heard they are planning to do up the road to Yorkeys crossing. Yorkeys crossing is the road that goes around the head of the gulf. In the old days trucks with heavy loads used to go around the head. Even so the new road is going to go past the mission, so if anything happens Aboriginal people will have to. At high tide at the head of the gulf, Sometimes King tides overlap the road and make that road very claggy and slippery. So rain or king tide make the potential for accidents to happen.

Why did so few people, did they have an open day at Woomera?

Yes, lot of people from Woomera went and voiced there concerns.

The most vocal people of all the towns for which there was an open day was Coober Pedy. Early on in the piece Coober Pedy had a proposed site about 100-110km South of Coober Pedy. We were told that the decision regarding where the dump is going to be is going to be based on scientific evidence and not on Government's decision. Yet the site at Coober Pedy was dismissed because the people at Coober Pedy all rallied around, and everyone was in agreeance they didn't want it up there at all. It turned out to be a political issue, that was in there favour and hence there is no site now at Coober Pedy.

That's what needst to happen here.

They were only going to dump the radioactive waste from Lucas Heights scientific experiments etc from the 1950's, here for 18 months. It's now been here since 1994.

There is high grade waste stored out here in an old defence bunker, Defence waste from St Mary's.

It's the women up front in the marches saying look we care about our kids, and the women are very strong. You would not be able to get a more multi-cultural town than Coober Pedy. It is heartening to see that everyone, these diverse communities and cultures have come together for one common goal - to stop the dump.

The person who designed Lucas Heights, where Lucas Heights reactor waste is being stored now, Dr Des Davies says to us the Aboriginal people, it is far safer to leave the stuff where it is than to move it around the country. There may be a time in the future when they will be able to deal with this stuff in a way that is safer, technology these days goes in leaps and bounds.

If they want to have nuclear power they should have a way of disposing of the waste that is safe and effective.

What do you know about Beverly Mine?

In the early 80's when that place was first being developed, senior elders from the Kokatha went across for a meeting with some of the senior Antimatnya people. At the time An had some of their senior men alive. At the time the;y said this place is significant for us and other Aboriginal people. We do not want the mine, so go away. And they did, they went away.

It's only since those senior people have passed away, as a result of that the people who should look after the land, look after the people and hold the stories for everybody have sold themselves short because they want money to gain more materialistic things.

I heard it said by one of the people who negotiated the deal, I said what about that meeting that time when our Kokatha mob was there and all your senior men were there? He said all those old blokes are dead now, what can they do?

That bloke now is sick.

A lot of Aboriginal stories have a moral to the story. The story of Sleepy Lizard who was very greedy, the moral to that story is "share it all around" Don't steal, don't ve greedy don't lie.

An example of the Government
You've got the old powerline which is under the new heritage act and the new powerline which is under the old heritage act and they run side by side on the same easement, basically. It just goes to show that whatever political party is in power is just going to bend over backwards to help big corporate companies like WMC because they've got the money behind them to back them and to get basically whatever they want. All they (Gov) care about is the money they don't care about the country or looking after that or future generations of people to come. It's in there, rip it out of the ground and get rid of it to make money and it's not as if the money is being put back into Australia. The money goes offshore so who benefits from it? It's not us. Down the track it is going to be our kids that are going to have to deal with the waste that is generated from the mining

Do you sense a growing empowerment of the Indig people in the area?

We've been around to know life comes in cycles